Patrick Casey and I got into a disagreement on Twitter over this notion of "white" and its salience. He suggested I come onto his podcast to discuss the issue.
I'm gonna be honest I don't think of myself as white, I'm Metis (part Native), but I mostly regard myself as Franco-Irish (ethnically,my family is a mix of Scottish, English, Native and Irish on my mother's side, on my father's it is French, Native and possibly Irish). This is not uncommon in French Canada, where the French mated primarily with either the Irish or the Natives, as the three 'minority' groups at the founding banded together to protect themselves from the 'big bad Anglo-Saxons'.
What's interesting in my background is that my English ancestors chose to in time assimilate to French, despite coming from England.
That is when I think of race at all (not often, to us French culture is absolute ethnicity is secondary).
It is interesting that those like yourself who have an actual identity --with an interesting story of identity to boot-- the term white is there, but not really how they think of themselves. I can use the term. I know what it means. But it always seems somehow empty and abstract. When you have an actual cultural and/or ethnic identity, it always feels richer and fuller.
Bingo. Cajun-Spanish-Indian-plus would be the breakdown of many “Creoles”. The admixture is, by definition, “thick”, and seems to produce olive-skin humans who are tough and resilient.
There is some weird (subconscious I think) substitution of white and American. One accepts that a heritage American is one of likely mixed NW Europe ancestry and yet slavery first and the continuation of a black ethnicity that has every right to be called American, then mass migration with little to no integration really muddies the water. There’s an honest yearning for more cohesion that we sense used to be, but there are already at least 5 subcultures on the continent. Even depending on where you are in the states, saying ‘that’s what white people do’ means different things, but would concede there is a broader category. I usually find it kind of low status to think of myself as white or even talk about it. I know who my people are and who they aren’t and it’s fairly organic. Humans are more complex and layered than that and certain things are left to more subtle understandings and cues. There is certainly more integration in the South and southwest particularly Texas and surrounding where there has been natural integration going on between the Tejanos, Mexicans and Anglo settlers for over 200 years resulting in a thicker unique regional culture. At least until the mass invasion of the last 3 decades...
It was a good faith conversation there just seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about what is being said and what time it is and how to respond politically. The anti-white rhetoric creates understandable anger and makes people act in ways subject to propaganda as you tried to point out.
Kruptos, I don’t think I agree you simply because you are my guy (I say that because I noticed that type of behavior in the YouTube comments). It is that White is simply too big of a category to have utility. The other reason I think is because the Christian distinction to me is more important than the white family I was born into.
One other thing to note is I would like to have had a definition set at the beginning of the discussion to define race and ethnicity.
Yes, I do think there was some talking past each other and some of it was the result of coming from different places, that Patrick and I have a different sense of our own identities. I wonder if I challenged something dear to him. That is the best I could guess after the fact. His thinking is sincere and in good faith and we both identify a common enemy. In spite of the differences we share more than we disagree on. But I do feel this is an important difference. The thicker and more grounded your identity the better.
I think your technique commentary married with me internalizing “Return of the Strong Gods” and fully understanding the post war consensus supplies both the technical and the moral engine behind the dilemmas here. Possibly the post war consensus was inevitable once technique took over but not sure.
I'm gonna be honest I don't think of myself as white, I'm Metis (part Native), but I mostly regard myself as Franco-Irish (ethnically,my family is a mix of Scottish, English, Native and Irish on my mother's side, on my father's it is French, Native and possibly Irish). This is not uncommon in French Canada, where the French mated primarily with either the Irish or the Natives, as the three 'minority' groups at the founding banded together to protect themselves from the 'big bad Anglo-Saxons'.
What's interesting in my background is that my English ancestors chose to in time assimilate to French, despite coming from England.
That is when I think of race at all (not often, to us French culture is absolute ethnicity is secondary).
It is interesting that those like yourself who have an actual identity --with an interesting story of identity to boot-- the term white is there, but not really how they think of themselves. I can use the term. I know what it means. But it always seems somehow empty and abstract. When you have an actual cultural and/or ethnic identity, it always feels richer and fuller.
Bingo. Cajun-Spanish-Indian-plus would be the breakdown of many “Creoles”. The admixture is, by definition, “thick”, and seems to produce olive-skin humans who are tough and resilient.
Yes. A real identity.
There is some weird (subconscious I think) substitution of white and American. One accepts that a heritage American is one of likely mixed NW Europe ancestry and yet slavery first and the continuation of a black ethnicity that has every right to be called American, then mass migration with little to no integration really muddies the water. There’s an honest yearning for more cohesion that we sense used to be, but there are already at least 5 subcultures on the continent. Even depending on where you are in the states, saying ‘that’s what white people do’ means different things, but would concede there is a broader category. I usually find it kind of low status to think of myself as white or even talk about it. I know who my people are and who they aren’t and it’s fairly organic. Humans are more complex and layered than that and certain things are left to more subtle understandings and cues. There is certainly more integration in the South and southwest particularly Texas and surrounding where there has been natural integration going on between the Tejanos, Mexicans and Anglo settlers for over 200 years resulting in a thicker unique regional culture. At least until the mass invasion of the last 3 decades...
It was a good faith conversation there just seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about what is being said and what time it is and how to respond politically. The anti-white rhetoric creates understandable anger and makes people act in ways subject to propaganda as you tried to point out.
Yes. I think you have captured some of the complexity and complications with this issue.
Kruptos, I don’t think I agree you simply because you are my guy (I say that because I noticed that type of behavior in the YouTube comments). It is that White is simply too big of a category to have utility. The other reason I think is because the Christian distinction to me is more important than the white family I was born into.
One other thing to note is I would like to have had a definition set at the beginning of the discussion to define race and ethnicity.
Yes, I do think there was some talking past each other and some of it was the result of coming from different places, that Patrick and I have a different sense of our own identities. I wonder if I challenged something dear to him. That is the best I could guess after the fact. His thinking is sincere and in good faith and we both identify a common enemy. In spite of the differences we share more than we disagree on. But I do feel this is an important difference. The thicker and more grounded your identity the better.
It's okay to be white.
Yes, it is. But the thicker and more grounded your identity the better off you will be.
Black and white do not exist in the real world. Both are meaningless constructs except to those who profit by division.
I think your technique commentary married with me internalizing “Return of the Strong Gods” and fully understanding the post war consensus supplies both the technical and the moral engine behind the dilemmas here. Possibly the post war consensus was inevitable once technique took over but not sure.
I would think so.