I recently tweeted out something suggesting that this is the case. Charles disagreed. We went back and forth and, in the end, agreed to disagree over this point.
I appreciated this conversation. I have seen a lot of the beats that Haywood pushed back on during my own conversations regarding Ellul.
One way I tried to make Ellul more palatable to skeptical friends is to emphasize that propaganda describes the vector of information available in the electronic media ecosystem, and you did note this fact, that propaganda was "vertical" rather than horizontal.
Maybe this is me reading into Ellul rather than understanding his ideas, but, but isn't there also an element of reciprocity at the "horizontal" mode of organic community organization, completely lacking in the "vertical" mode of propaganda?
Say if I was in a peasant village, and my friend tells me of his first hand experience out in the distant capital, I can ask questions, push back on or agree with his interpretations or ask for illumination on certain points. would also be aware of my friend's biases, strengths and weaknesses. I can not do this to the same extent with a modern government approved press release, or electronic media narratives like movies/advertisements. Though this ground is shifting in the times of the internet commentator, it largely still holds for pop culture phenomena.
Musk has no answer to what meaning he can provide people. He is already on record laughing when asked about AI killing jobs. He is ultimately anti human
Reminding Haywood that the most ever present form of propaganda in our lives is advertising might make skills point more reasonable to him.
"skills" = Ellul's
Perhaps. Charles just doesn’t see propaganda as all encompassing and embedded in everything.
So Modern civilizational states are the Borg.
Pretty much, yeah.
I appreciated this conversation. I have seen a lot of the beats that Haywood pushed back on during my own conversations regarding Ellul.
One way I tried to make Ellul more palatable to skeptical friends is to emphasize that propaganda describes the vector of information available in the electronic media ecosystem, and you did note this fact, that propaganda was "vertical" rather than horizontal.
Maybe this is me reading into Ellul rather than understanding his ideas, but, but isn't there also an element of reciprocity at the "horizontal" mode of organic community organization, completely lacking in the "vertical" mode of propaganda?
Say if I was in a peasant village, and my friend tells me of his first hand experience out in the distant capital, I can ask questions, push back on or agree with his interpretations or ask for illumination on certain points. would also be aware of my friend's biases, strengths and weaknesses. I can not do this to the same extent with a modern government approved press release, or electronic media narratives like movies/advertisements. Though this ground is shifting in the times of the internet commentator, it largely still holds for pop culture phenomena.
Yes, I think you have a good grasp of it.
Charles was on track with questioning the assumption of priors especially pertaining to the history of America’s founding mythos.
Musk has no answer to what meaning he can provide people. He is already on record laughing when asked about AI killing jobs. He is ultimately anti human
I would agree with you there.
>He hasn't returned to ancestor worship yet
You’re right, of course. Charles is wrong about too many things. And he’s obsessed with Elon’s Mars fantasy.
If you listen, you will find his critiques to be cogent and well thought out. The disagreement is an honest one, but a disagreement none the less.