Paul Kingsnorth wrote an article for First Things, making an argument against the idea and reality of Christian civilization. We in the Ghetto thought it merited a response.
Important to recognize that any so called "atrocities" committed by the British or other colonial powers did not happen in a vacuum. They did not happen for no reason at all, and are surprisingly often entirely justified.
Kingsnorth is incorrect to assert civilization is inherently against God's intent, otherwise there would be no justification for churches, monasteries, or tradition. His follow-up conversation with Pageau made him soften this stance on this a bit. God redeems and integrates mankind's efforts into His plans. Also we must live in the world we are given, not pine for an idyllic one.
However it is a grave mistake to equate Western civilization with the life of the Church. I think you all conflate the two and make an idol of your cultural heritage.
Really helpful discussion! You guys put to words what was this vague disgust I had reading the article. He reminds me of a freshman year philosophy student who suddenly discovers the problem of evil and returns at Thanksgiving to lecture his parents on their Christian faith… as if they’ve never considered these things before.
There’s an arrogance and/or naivety here that the millions of us who do believe in Christian civilization have somehow forgotten Jesus’ words and never explored how “heavenly citizenship” might affect the here and now. (The irony is of course that only a man living in and out of a Christian civilization would have the ability and underlying ethic needed to question said civilization.)
How much of this thinking comes out of his conversion to Orthodoxy? As it’s been said, Orthodoxy seeks to transcend rather than transform the world.
Glad that someone is giving some thorough responses to this deeply unserious and irresponsible man. His nonsense has caused havoc among people I know, and he insists on promoting other people that spread the same kind of nonsense.
Paul has yet to address it directly but there is a clear friction between his adoration of monastics and the fact that he is married and a father. I imagine this distorts his conclusions somewhat since his heart is effectively divided.
Seems like paganism rises insofar as it is more Christian than the Church. Throw the moneylenders out, preach that the wicked should be hated, and the Church could heal in a matter of years.
Enjoyed this discussion immensely!
I was glad you could join the discussion, Ron.
Ron, if l'm remembering the thesis
correctly, isn't Peter Leithart's book "Against Christianity" essentially the opposite position to Kingsnorth?
Yes. More or less.
Too many Monks, not enough Knights.
Important to recognize that any so called "atrocities" committed by the British or other colonial powers did not happen in a vacuum. They did not happen for no reason at all, and are surprisingly often entirely justified.
Yes, but you have to step back out of current narratives to see this with clear eyes.
Kingsnorth is incorrect to assert civilization is inherently against God's intent, otherwise there would be no justification for churches, monasteries, or tradition. His follow-up conversation with Pageau made him soften this stance on this a bit. God redeems and integrates mankind's efforts into His plans. Also we must live in the world we are given, not pine for an idyllic one.
However it is a grave mistake to equate Western civilization with the life of the Church. I think you all conflate the two and make an idol of your cultural heritage.
Really helpful discussion! You guys put to words what was this vague disgust I had reading the article. He reminds me of a freshman year philosophy student who suddenly discovers the problem of evil and returns at Thanksgiving to lecture his parents on their Christian faith… as if they’ve never considered these things before.
There’s an arrogance and/or naivety here that the millions of us who do believe in Christian civilization have somehow forgotten Jesus’ words and never explored how “heavenly citizenship” might affect the here and now. (The irony is of course that only a man living in and out of a Christian civilization would have the ability and underlying ethic needed to question said civilization.)
How much of this thinking comes out of his conversion to Orthodoxy? As it’s been said, Orthodoxy seeks to transcend rather than transform the world.
Thanks. Yeah, that captures our sentiment generally.
Glad that someone is giving some thorough responses to this deeply unserious and irresponsible man. His nonsense has caused havoc among people I know, and he insists on promoting other people that spread the same kind of nonsense.
Thanks. Yeah, because he is generally well regarded for his writing and thinking, we felt it necessary to push back.
Paul has yet to address it directly but there is a clear friction between his adoration of monastics and the fact that he is married and a father. I imagine this distorts his conclusions somewhat since his heart is effectively divided.
Seems like paganism rises insofar as it is more Christian than the Church. Throw the moneylenders out, preach that the wicked should be hated, and the Church could heal in a matter of years.
Your contact is truly like intellectual p*** to me... 😂
Another fantastic conversation I gained immense wisdom from. Thank you!
You're welcome. And thank you for the kind words.