One of the most devastating influences upon the Christian faith has been egalitarianism. Christians trying to signal they are no better than anyone else has been ruinous for the faith.
I'm curious as to how much agency you feel that humans have. Taken to the extreme, the position of "you're becoming who were always going to be" borders on predestination and seems to take away any human agency. How do you balance giving Christ the credit but humans a choice?
For this I generally pull out the mystery card. One of the deepest mysteries you will contemplate and for which you will come up with no rational answer is explaining how predestination and human choice works together. The best I am able to do is to say that it is a matter of experience. We experience life as choices for which we bear responsibility. But we also know that there is the perspective of God, which we generally don’t have access to.
Yes, the metaphysics of this can get pretty interesting; I think it boils down to "humans experience time and God doesn't". (How Christ experienced time while on Earth is its own mystery.)
But I can't help but think that humans have some responsibility. We can't save ourselves, but we can damn ourselves. At some point we must make the conscious decision to rely on Christ, which implies that we could consciously revoke that choice as well. So perhaps saying "I'm a sinner like you" is a teleologically self-fulfilling prophecy - another reason not to say it.
Interesting comment. I believe Paul in Corinthians said godly sorrow brings about repentance which brings about salvation, right? I believe as distinct beings from God (yet also inextricably linked persons to Him as well) that we do participate in our salvation, at least to a small degree. When we pray & ask the Lord for mercy, it surely isn't predestined or predetermined right? Prayer is an act & I do not believe I'm just experiencing, first hand, God merely & entirely having a conversation with himself, with me fully absent agency or freewill during the whole process on every iteration of prayer I give
I didn't attend Seminary & I certainly believe there is knowledge & mystery that is beyond man's comprehension, but I'm interested in anyone's thoughts or possible counters here
Thank you for the excellent essay of Truth! Jesus Christ has already handled the "sin question" for all time. Those who insist on focusing on their flesh and sin consciousness, would do well to remember this:
Romans 8:6–8
[6] For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. [7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is HOSTILE to God, for it DOES NOT submit to God’s law; indeed, it CANNOT. [8] Those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God. (ESV)
How are we to supposed to think about all this - spiritual vs physical/flesh? From Youngs Literal Translation:
1 Corinthians 2:15
15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one (no natural man) discerned;
We understand the reality of who we have become by Spiritual Discernment!
One other thing - in response to the truth, the religious critic may throw this verse in our face:
Romans 12:3
[3] For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. (ESV)
I learned that the admonition to "...not think of himself more highly..." is actually a figure of speech, "oxymoron". The emphasis is that it is not possible to think of yourself (your new spiritual self, the new nature) more highly than you ought to think. The key to this verse is that we think "according to THE MEASURE of faith that God has assigned (to each of us)".
God, working in Christ is so magnificent that the human mind cannot completely comprehend it. Do not cast aspersions on what God has worked in Christ by unjustly condemning yourself by the standards of the flesh. Discern the reality of who you are by keeping your mind on what God has worked in Christ.
Thanks for sharing these. Yeah, like I said in the piece, it is everywhere in the NT. This is the good news, not that you might be better if you work hard at it with the help of the Spirit, but that you have already been changed. This is what we must believe.
I don’t know. As a Catholic when I say “I’m a sinner” I’m specifically referring to venial sin. As for mortal sin, I am able to stay free of that bc of the sacraments. And only bc of them.
As a Reformed Protestant that all actions are tainted by sin and we do not divide between venial and mortal sins. Heidelberg Catechism Q&A 91
Q. What do we do that is good?
A. Only that which arises out of true faith [ed. which is a gift from God], conforms to God's law, and is done for his glory; and not that which is based on what we think is right or on established human tradition.
The implication of this is that it is only possible for a Christian, for someone who it truly redeemed by God, to do good, and then only by the grace of God.
From the context, I would argue that there are some sins from which there is no recovery, such that John says that you need not pray for such a person.
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
It appears that he is pointing to those sins which are “unforgivable.” There is, unfortunately, a lack of real clarity here and I would not want to build a theology of sin using this as primary verse.
Thanks for the essay - I enjoy your work!
I'm curious as to how much agency you feel that humans have. Taken to the extreme, the position of "you're becoming who were always going to be" borders on predestination and seems to take away any human agency. How do you balance giving Christ the credit but humans a choice?
For this I generally pull out the mystery card. One of the deepest mysteries you will contemplate and for which you will come up with no rational answer is explaining how predestination and human choice works together. The best I am able to do is to say that it is a matter of experience. We experience life as choices for which we bear responsibility. But we also know that there is the perspective of God, which we generally don’t have access to.
Yes, the metaphysics of this can get pretty interesting; I think it boils down to "humans experience time and God doesn't". (How Christ experienced time while on Earth is its own mystery.)
But I can't help but think that humans have some responsibility. We can't save ourselves, but we can damn ourselves. At some point we must make the conscious decision to rely on Christ, which implies that we could consciously revoke that choice as well. So perhaps saying "I'm a sinner like you" is a teleologically self-fulfilling prophecy - another reason not to say it.
Yes. I agree with that. What are your eyes fixed on? The wind and waves? Or Jesus and who you are in him?
Interesting comment. I believe Paul in Corinthians said godly sorrow brings about repentance which brings about salvation, right? I believe as distinct beings from God (yet also inextricably linked persons to Him as well) that we do participate in our salvation, at least to a small degree. When we pray & ask the Lord for mercy, it surely isn't predestined or predetermined right? Prayer is an act & I do not believe I'm just experiencing, first hand, God merely & entirely having a conversation with himself, with me fully absent agency or freewill during the whole process on every iteration of prayer I give
I didn't attend Seminary & I certainly believe there is knowledge & mystery that is beyond man's comprehension, but I'm interested in anyone's thoughts or possible counters here
Thank you for the excellent essay of Truth! Jesus Christ has already handled the "sin question" for all time. Those who insist on focusing on their flesh and sin consciousness, would do well to remember this:
Romans 8:6–8
[6] For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. [7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is HOSTILE to God, for it DOES NOT submit to God’s law; indeed, it CANNOT. [8] Those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God. (ESV)
How are we to supposed to think about all this - spiritual vs physical/flesh? From Youngs Literal Translation:
1 Corinthians 2:15
15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one (no natural man) discerned;
We understand the reality of who we have become by Spiritual Discernment!
One other thing - in response to the truth, the religious critic may throw this verse in our face:
Romans 12:3
[3] For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. (ESV)
I learned that the admonition to "...not think of himself more highly..." is actually a figure of speech, "oxymoron". The emphasis is that it is not possible to think of yourself (your new spiritual self, the new nature) more highly than you ought to think. The key to this verse is that we think "according to THE MEASURE of faith that God has assigned (to each of us)".
God, working in Christ is so magnificent that the human mind cannot completely comprehend it. Do not cast aspersions on what God has worked in Christ by unjustly condemning yourself by the standards of the flesh. Discern the reality of who you are by keeping your mind on what God has worked in Christ.
Thanks for sharing these. Yeah, like I said in the piece, it is everywhere in the NT. This is the good news, not that you might be better if you work hard at it with the help of the Spirit, but that you have already been changed. This is what we must believe.
Simply beautiful. It is perfect. Bless you!
Thank you.
You know I never thought of it that way. Thank you Kruptos! You have a good day!
Thanks! You too!
I don’t know. As a Catholic when I say “I’m a sinner” I’m specifically referring to venial sin. As for mortal sin, I am able to stay free of that bc of the sacraments. And only bc of them.
As a Reformed Protestant that all actions are tainted by sin and we do not divide between venial and mortal sins. Heidelberg Catechism Q&A 91
Q. What do we do that is good?
A. Only that which arises out of true faith [ed. which is a gift from God], conforms to God's law, and is done for his glory; and not that which is based on what we think is right or on established human tradition.
The implication of this is that it is only possible for a Christian, for someone who it truly redeemed by God, to do good, and then only by the grace of God.
Hopefully that helps.
1John5:17
There is sin that is not deadly.
Agreed we do good only by the grace of God, which comes primarily through the sacraments.
From the context, I would argue that there are some sins from which there is no recovery, such that John says that you need not pray for such a person.
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
It appears that he is pointing to those sins which are “unforgivable.” There is, unfortunately, a lack of real clarity here and I would not want to build a theology of sin using this as primary verse.